Speaker 2 00:00:25 If you have a vision for the agency you want to build, then we want to help you build it. Welcome to the agency hour podcast brought to you by agency Mavericks.
Speaker 3 00:00:34 Welcome to the agency hour. This is episode 437 in the digital Mavericks Facebook group.
Speaker 3 00:00:44 Hey, uh, today we have a very special guest. We're supposed to have three actually, but there's only one in the green room. One, Christina Hawkins just has not turned up. And I think it's because daylight savings is bitten her in the arse and she probably thinks it's in an hour's time and true story. Our actual guest this week thought the same thing and just kind of ran at the last minute and went, oh my God, with the sweat dripping off his brow. Oh my God. I'm so sorry. I'm running late. I thought this was in an hour's time. And uh, oh, there we go. Marcel Allen figured it out and has given stream out permission for us to know who she is. Yay. Marcel. Welcome to the show. Of course, for those of you listening to this as a podcast and not watching in the Facebook group, this will be incredibly boring for you because you won't know what we are talking about.
Speaker 3 00:01:31 If you do happen to be listening to this at some point in the future, and you're not watching the interaction, you should join the digital Mavericks Facebook group, just go to facebook.com, search for digital Mavericks and join the group. And then you can watch the video here and see what all the fun is about. So today our very special guest on the agency hour is a gentleman I met while I was out in the United Kingdom at an event run by Lee Jackson called I think it was called agency transformation live. I was one of the speakers out there as was this gentleman. And I ran into this gentleman, uh, who, uh, cornered me at the back of the room and said, oh, you come here. I wanna have a chat with you. And we got chatting and he'd flown out from the states, uh, to this event. And he has become very well known in our circles over the last, I don't know, maybe couple of years that, that he's been here. And, uh, he also then came out to our event in Santa Monica, sponsored one of our events in Santa Monica. And we've had a great friendship and a great relationship over the last couple of years. Of course I am talking about the one and only Han skill rod from aged. Come on down. Hey dude, did I say your name right? You
Speaker 5 00:02:38 Did. And that's a heck of an introduction.
Speaker 3 00:02:40 Well, dude, I, I have to say, you know, uh, your energy at agency transformation at, in the UK was blazing. You lit the room up dude with, uh, how passionate you were and how grateful you were to be at that event. I remember you standing up and saying something like, I wish this event existed. When I had an agency look around, this is an amazing network you guys have got, you're sitting on a gold mine, make the most of it, by the way. I've just I've. I just, I found out about this event like two days ago, got on a plane from Chicago and here I am. So for those that have been living under a rock for the last couple of years, tell people who you are and how you got to where you are now. Yeah's and, and why you are in the Tartus. It looks like you're actually in the Tartus.
Speaker 5 00:03:21 Oh yeah, this is, this is what powers Turgeon. So, you know, uh, I always gotta be in front of it, protecting it at all times, but, um, but yeah, my name is Hans I'm one of the co-founders of Turgeon, uh, term getin is an auto updating website policy solution. Uh, we offer privacy policies, terms of service and all those other boring things that you probably have to deal with when building websites for clients. Um, uh, we PR primarily work with, uh, web designers. Uh, we have like a reseller program and an affiliate program, and really we just built term again to, well, one be comprehensive, which is what my wife does. Um, she's the privacy attorney and expert behind all that stuff, but two really just helping web agencies better communicate, you know, when clients need to have policies on their website. And, um, yeah, we, we have a resell and affiliate program that helps them out with that.
Speaker 5 00:04:09 So, you know, Troy brings up this moment when we first met at agency transformation live and you know what, that was two years and like four months ago. And the reason why I can recall that so quickly is because that is one month after I sold my 12 person web agency. So I ran a 12 person web agency for seven years. I absolutely loved it. Um, I just happened to be marrying a privacy attorney. So we, we launched term again, but I had just sold my agency and now my target market were web agencies. And here I was speaking to a community that, you know, we had so many similarities and so many great ways to learn from one another. It was, it was really my entry into my new business. And in a lot of ways, I look at it as like a symbolic moment in my life. Um, and I just, I felt like I found my people. So yeah, it was absolutely great meeting you, Troy. And, um, and I love sponsoring your event and please call me whenever we can sponsor I'm I'm always, I'm always ready, always
Speaker 5 00:05:42 Oh, speak of the devil here comes my comprehensive life. All right. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 3 00:05:47 Right on cue.
Speaker 5 00:05:50 Hi,
Speaker 3 00:05:50 Welcome to the show. Welcome to agency. Our hands was just saying he just described you as comprehensive. He said, uh, I, I married a privacy attorney. Uh, I sold the agency, uh, married a privacy attorney. And, uh, what we help agencies do now is, is, is, you know, terms and conditions and policies and those sort of agreements, but really comprehensively because that is my wife. So he, he did describe you as comprehensive. And I'm just trying to unpack that a little bit and see if that's, uh, true in other aspects of
Speaker 1 00:06:17 Very interesting way to describe your wife, I guess, is as comprehend.
Speaker 3 00:06:21 Well, when I first met my wife, when we first started dating, I said to her, you know, one thing I really like about you is you are reliable. And she, she was like, oh my God, how boring I'm reliable. And I, I meant what I meant was that she was, she was consistent in her behavior. Like you knew what you were gonna get, which was something that really appealed to me. Um, maybe cuz I'd been with some sociopaths in the past that I enjoyed the predictability of someone who actually said and did what they said they were gonna do. Oh, sorry.
Speaker 5 00:06:52 Too lot of tea too.
Speaker 1 00:06:54 Uh, so really interesting and very quick story. I'm sure we'll get back to the things that the people are here for. Of
Speaker 3 00:07:00 Course we don't need to, we can just talk about life and philosophy if you like, I'm think that'll be
Speaker 1 00:07:05 Well real quick. Last year, about a week before our wedding, uh, we were having this nice romantic dinner, champagne, you know, like just, just the whole nine yards at home and he looks over and he says, you look so beautiful tonight. And I look over and he's talking to our dog
Speaker 3 00:07:25 <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:07:27 So the romance is very much alive. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:07:30 I'm I'm never gonna hear the end of that one. I'm in trouble. I'm in the doghouse with the beautiful dog
Speaker 1 00:07:37 Forever.
Speaker 3 00:07:39 I gotta bring up, I gotta bring up the candle after that is hilarious. Um, Hey ladies and gentlemen, joining us all the way from Sugarland, Texas a little bit late, and I'm gonna grill her and throw her under a bus and get her to explain why Christine Hawkins, Hawker, NATO.
Speaker 0 00:07:54 <laugh> sorry about that. That was a little time zone issue there going on. So
Speaker 3 00:07:59 We, I told you it was daylight savings. I said daylight savings had just bit you in the ass. Daylight savings happened for us a couple of weeks ago. I think. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:08:06 I was having a Mavericks call. I was talking with some flight planning with the Maverick, so
Speaker 3 00:08:10 Ah, there we go. There we go.
Speaker 0 00:08:11 It was all in good, you know.
Speaker 3 00:08:14 Excellent. All right. Um, so Dan, before you, um, and Christina, before you guys gate crashed is very private, intimate conversation that Hans and I were enjoying <laugh> I said to Hans, how do you turn a business? How do you make a business out of something that is perceived as something that is a boring pain in the ass must have compliance thing? How do you make it apart from running the business? From what looks like the inside of the Dr. Who Tartu, uh, apart from that, how do you, you, I know you guys have done a great job at the brand, but like how do you make this not boring and not a pain in the ass?
Speaker 5 00:08:48 Yeah. So in this situation, our entire business model is focusing on web agencies. And since I have experienced being a web agency owner, I really just kind of wrote down everything. I want to see both in a product and both in, in terms of education and like something I like that seemed to strike well with the audience of web agencies is like, don't be pushy with sales, just be educational. Um, give them something free to try out before they start advocating for it. Um, and give them the ability to make some recurring revenue. Um, all three of those were some key focuses we had. So when we branded it as term getin, um, we, we, we [email protected]
lledemailonacid.com. And, uh, mm-hmm, <affirmative> email on acid.com is a tool I used when sending out email marketing campaigns for some of our bigger marketing clients. Um, and email on acid would tell you, you know, Hey, send a test email to email on acid, and then they will give you the, the layout look and feel on every device, every browser, um, every email, uh, service provider.
Speaker 1 00:11:07 Described as the most boring person on earth,
Speaker 5 00:11:11 Comprehensive <laugh>, but, uh, yeah, it's a nice, it's a nice, wow.
Speaker 3 00:11:16 That's, that's great positioning, like having that, having those positions on, on the board and having those connections is great positioning and make sure they're ultimate authority. How I'm gonna ask the elephant in the room. How are you different to termly or are you bender or any of those other services
Speaker 5 00:11:30 For sure. Um, our DNA is working with web agencies. So our platform is built specifically to help web agencies help their clients, um, little examples, like being able to duplicate licenses. So if you tend to build websites with a similar tech stack using, let's say WordPress gravity forms, Google analytics, and maybe an active campaign com uh, connection, you can actually duplicate licenses to help expedite the, uh, website policy generation process for your clients. Another great example is like, um, the fact that licenses can be shared. So if you, you know, are reselling term again, you can actually share the license with your client by sharing the license with your client that ensures they get not only access to update their policies whenever they want, but it also ensures that your client will receive updates whenever the laws change. Um, and whenever we're updating their policies in the first place. So, right. The biggest difference between us in my opinion is that, um, well from a user standpoint, it's the, um, those features that help support web agencies be as profitable as possible. Mm-hmm <affirmative> now that being said, that's my perspective and I'm sure. Do you wanna speak up on the comprehensiveness?
Speaker 1 00:12:34 Yeah, so, uh, I guess for me, that's definitely not the most important difference. Um, to me the most important difference is, and no shade towards our competitors. Uh, but our privacy policies that we generate for our clients actually include all the disclosures that are required by the privacy laws that apply to you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So the way the process works is as the first step, we actually help you determine what privacy laws apply to you. And then the remainder of the questions are based on that, to make sure that you have all of the disclosures required by those laws that apply to you. And then we also keep track of privacy bills and laws a lot closer than our competitors do as well. So we keep track of all the bills in the United States, Australia, Canada, UK, EU, all of that. Um, and we make sure to update those privacy policies on time prior to the laws going into effect, um, which our competitors have failed to do on numerous
Speaker 5 00:13:26 Occasions. And a real, a really good example is CCPA, the California consumer privacy act, which is California's second privacy law that's in effect. And so many of our competitors will say, do you wanna be CCPA compliant? And you say yes or no. When in reality it is it's that law was not created just to give peop businesses an option to comply or not. No, it is required by law. If you do business in California, and if you meet one of the following three criteria, mm-hmm <affirmative>, if you generate more than 25 million in revenue, if you process the data 50,000 more California consumers, or you, you drive more than 50% of your business from selling the personal information of California consumers. So you have to say yes to one of those three questions and do business in California for you to be forced to comply with CCPA. So our tool all about helping you figure out what li what laws you need to comply with in the first place, in the hope that you, or, uh, with the intent to ask you the questions that produce the disclosures actually required by the laws you need to comply
Speaker 3 00:14:24 With. Th this, this is a very good example because I, I I've been through some of the competitors and I'll name them. I've been through termly. And are you bender? And I can't answer these questions. I don't know if I need to be CCPA compliant. Right. So guess what happens then I start going through the process and I'm like, fuck, this is gonna take me three weeks to figure this out. I'm just gonna put it in the two hard basket and pray. Nobody sues me. Mm-hmm
Speaker 5 00:14:48 <affirmative>. Yeah. Right. And that's, and that is, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:50 And I think a great example, too, is Australia, right? So like one of the disclosures that you need to make under Australia's privacy law is whether you subscribe to any Australia, privacy codes, termly, and I bend don't ask those questions just because I think they don't have the legal team or the infrastructure in place to know what those laws actually require, or maybe they don't care about that. But we actually made sure to comb through each law extensively. And that's why it took us so long to launch in Australia because we had to, oh, sorry. Well,
Speaker 0 00:15:23 Cat's outta bag
Speaker 3 00:15:25 Cat running across the room. I think the cat's outta the,
Speaker 0 00:15:29 We
Speaker 3 00:15:32 Wanna, you wanna, you wanna fill us in what's what's happening
Speaker 5 00:15:36 So on Friday. Yeah. Yeah. You deserve this more than
Speaker 1 00:15:38 You. Thank you. Cause I'm the one who engineered the entire thing. We are now available for businesses that are based in Australia. So any that are based in Australia can now generate your policies. Would termin get,
Speaker 3 00:15:51 Thanks that the, the, the week that I become incorporated in the states you launch in Australia, appreciate that. Thanks your timing. Couldn't be worse.
Speaker 1 00:15:58 That's we were waiting. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:15:59 Waiting for you become based
Speaker 3 00:16:04 Go Christina. No,
Speaker 0 00:16:05 I was just saying, cuz you know, I've got about 18 licenses myself and so I use it regularly. And I think one of the beauties that I, that I like about it is that wizzy is that wizard effect that you have that if you, if this, then that. And so I walk through it with my clients. And I'm curious, is that the kind of process that you would recommend for some of the, some of these folks, but obviously let's go back to the Australian side of things, but um, yeah, that was just kind of one of my questions.
Speaker 3 00:17:43 Oh, very. I should also just, I should have just dropped this now that for those in Australia who are now able to reach out and chat with you guys and for anyone else around the world, listening, if you haven't already checked that term again and, uh, get on over the term again and get in touch and mention agency Mavericks. And if you mention agency Mavericks, what will happen? Hans, you'll hit that big green button behind you and the, the tar will explode and you'll take off into our space,
Speaker 1 00:18:05 Just explode
Speaker 5 00:18:06 In addition to explosions, um, we will actually, instead of giving you one free license forever, which we that's our standard business model, we give agencies one free license for their own website. We'll give you two. Um, so if you have two websites, great, you can use both licenses for both of your websites or maybe you have one website, you can use the other and resell it for, you know, the 99 bucks a year process and see what that experience looks like. So you can see for yourself, you know, is this, is this a tool I could see myself reselling to all my
Speaker 1 00:18:32 Clients? Yeah. And all you have to do is go to tourin.com and um, click on agency partners and apply there and mention agency Mavericks. And you get to two free licenses, do note that we process those manually. So it might take us a couple hours to get to your registration. So don't make a payment or anything just hold tight. And then we'll issue you the two free licenses and send you an email confirming that that's been done.
Speaker 3 00:18:57 Awesome. I'm I'm curious who else is on the team beside you two?
Speaker 5 00:19:01 So we have, so when I sold my agency, I sold my 12 person agency to a 75 person dev shop in Iowa. Um, and we gave them the contract on working with term for several years. So we're still working with them. They're absolutely fantastic. Um, and yeah, we're
Speaker 1 00:19:16 We're so they're our design team and then on the legal side and Hans is the agency partnership side.
Speaker 5 00:19:21 Yep.
Speaker 3 00:19:22 Cool, awesome.
Speaker 0 00:19:23 Uh, what, what did, what did you have to do in effect to get into Australia to get this private? I mean, I can't imagine it's just all those laws that are in place. It's bad enough in the us with California and Nevada. I mean, I keep waiting for Texas privacy laws to kick in. I don't know when that's gonna happen, but you know, these are all these individual laws. How, how did you manage to get Australian privacy laws in terms and conditions?
Speaker 1 00:20:49 So like for example, if you need CCPA compliance and Australia, privacy, law compliance, you know, how those interact together and what the text would say, writing up all the questions, all the different options, what happens if they answer yes to this? What happens if they answer no to that? Um, and then writing all of the texts and all the different iterations of all the things that could happen, mapping all of those together, adding them together with all of the different privacy laws that we actually offer compliance with. Um, and then, you know, giving that over to the dev team, um, and, and actually developing all of that logic and all that text and all of those options out. So it's a very long process. It's a very tedious process. It can be a very frustrating process, especially when you have to work with legislators, unlike reconciling differences and stuff. Um, but yeah, that's, that's basically how you deal
Speaker 5 00:21:38 It. And I'll tell you, my day feels very, I feel very, uh, unaccomplished every single day I work with Donata because I'm like, Hey, what you like, what'd you do over the last 30 minutes spoke the Australian commissioner office.
Speaker 0 00:21:50 Oh, my
Speaker 5 00:21:51 Privacy law from, you know, 30 years ago. And I'm just like, man, I like sent four emails. So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:21:57 It basically starts off with like 1,005 sticky notes. Yeah. And then goes into like the mapping, which is a bunch of different charts and color coding and, and all of that. So it's a, it's a very interesting process
Speaker 5 00:22:11 And
Speaker 3 00:22:11 Very comprehensive. You were right, hon. She's very comprehensive <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:23:26 With that. And actually Australia is, um, considering an update too. It's privacy law as well. So that's been added to the track
Speaker 0 00:23:32 Too well, and all those things that you talk about just now, all those little areas of, of changes here, changes here. That's how I sell this. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it, every privacy term, again, is on every proposal that I have, because I think it's just that important. And when they ask me why I basically just run down, <laugh> the constant changes that are occurring in the us and Australia now. And I, I remind them, you can either do this, or you can hire a privacy attorney, right? So you can decide, and you never know when this, the, the change is gonna happen and your privacy ter probably isn't going to tell you, Hey, you need to update your privacy and who all along, who knows how long that's gonna take. So that's one of my selling points is I kind of run through all these bullet points that you guys provide. And it, it almost sells itself just because of the, the, the, there's just so much to it constantly changing. And, and the, the threat is there.
Speaker 3 00:24:26 What, what is the,
Speaker 1 00:24:27 The United Kingdom? And, um, Canada are actually considering changes to their privacy loss too, just because so many companies have done, um, a lot of privacy abuses have happened lately, and there's so much tracking happening online. And a lot of these privacy laws just need to be updated considering how personal information ISS used nowadays. So pretty much every country's considering updates right now.
Speaker 0 00:25:08 <laugh> for those free generators. I'll be honest with you. I did the free generator thing. So, but
Speaker 5 00:25:14 You know, that was one that was what started term again, is like, I was like, of course I copy and paste privacy policies for my clients. And DiData, couldn't believe it, you know,
Speaker 1 00:25:21 I almost fell outta my chair just like Troy did.
Speaker 3 00:26:31 Before I ask a philosophical question about privacy, what's the recurring revenue model for an agency partner reselling term again, what's the potential upside.
Speaker 5 00:26:42 Yeah. So, um, you can spell term term again, retails in 99 bucks a year. So I always re recommend charging like a $200 setup fee one to $200 setup fee just to copy and paste the bed codes on the site. Christina mentioned like doing a zoom walkthroughs. So just make sure you charge for your setup time
Speaker 0 00:26:59 Setup fee. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:27:00 Oh, perfect. Yeah. Perfect. And then, and then just, uh, set them up with an automated $99 per year subscription. Um, you as an agency partner will be able to buy licenses one at a time at $38 and 40 cents per year, um, and be able to share the license with them. So it's great because you get paid for your time to do the setup, and then you make an extra a hundred bucks a year off that client. Um, and you know, no, one's getting rich off term again, uh, by any stretch of the word, but you are educating your client on the fact that, you know, Hey, I just built a website for you that can collect regulated data.
Speaker 0 00:27:31 It's a really great tool to keep in touch with your clients. So it's a, you know, beyond just our strategy calls that we typically have, it's a, it's a great excuse to have that annual conversation. Okay. 20 two's coming around, we gotta go through B, C and your term again, um, uh, privacy policies and term let's, let's go through it together. Has anything changed? Has your return policies changed? Have your cancellations changed? You know, and I don't know that. So it's just a really great way to keep in front of our clients on an annual basis.
Speaker 1 00:28:02 You know, actually there's one thing that I did forget to mention. So the we're launching privacy policies in terms of service for Australian customers and the beauty of, of what I did. <laugh> thank you.
Speaker 1 00:28:16 Um, if you have the terms of service that you're generating the term again, and you do business with Australian consumers who sell goods or services to Australian consumers through your website, you do need to comply with Australian consumer protection laws, and those laws have very stricter requirements on what warranties you offer, cancellations, refunds, all of that information. And what the does is when you're answering the questionnaire. So when you're answering the question of like, what warranties do you provide? It actually provides you with information of what warranties you need to provide under Australian consumer protection laws. So you can make sure that your warranties comply with those laws. He's complied with those laws so that you're not investigated or fined by the government for violating, um, Australian consumer protection laws. So it provides you with information on, on what to add there, to make sure you're compliant with those laws, which is also something that our competitors don't do. So you can make sure that you have all those right disclosures or you're compliant with the Australian privacy act and the consumer protection loss at the same time for your terms and your privacy
Speaker 5 00:29:16 Policy. And, and I should know, did not said earlier, we're not here to bash our competitors. We're just here to build the most comprehensive generator in the world. And that's really
Speaker 3 00:29:23 That's OK. This is a private Facebook group. You can beat the shit Eddie competitors, if you like. I don't mind. In fact, I encourage that kind behavior here. Um, the, the, uh, uh, so the way I would position this is I wouldn't even mention the price of term again. In fact, I wouldn't even mention term again, and I would just, this would be if you are, if I would position this as part of our growth plan, by the way, the compliance work is a given, we are just gonna take care of that for you. We just, that's a done service for our growth partners. My hard cost is 38, 40 a year. I wouldn't, I personally wouldn't be selling this as a separate line item to clients. I'd be putting it as part of their growth plan or their premium care plan or whatever that way I'd just make more out of it. And I wouldn't have to itemize it. Um, that's just my personal take on it. Um, the, the, how E what's in, is it, is it an embed code that I, is that what happens? How does it auto update? Because so on my page, it's actually like an iframe or something, is
Speaker 5 00:30:15 It? Yeah. So, um, after you generate your policies, you get an embed code and that's just what gets copied and pasted into the body of the policy pages. Um, got it. So that is what allows us a term again, to control what that those policies say and push updates whenever they want. And just so you know, um, with what you just mentioned earlier, Troy, um, there's many agencies that do white label us. My personal recommendation is to take advantage of being able to share the license with the client. And, you know, the unfortunate thing is they will see the term again, branding at that point in time. But by sharing the license, it really does mean it's a set and forget it solution for the agency, because then you no longer feel like you have to communicate privacy law updates in the future. Now Christina takes it to the next level by us leveraging it as an opportunity to speak with clients. So I totally see how you could implement it. And I will definitely say term again, is built with maintenance plans and mine and care plan time. So, um, that's why we, great example is why we say is an approved agency partner. You instantly get access to wholesale rates that you can buy one at a time. You don't have to buy a hundred. You can just buy 'em one at a time.
Speaker 3 00:31:18 Yeah, I can I buy, can I buy 50 at a time?
Speaker 5 00:31:20 Yes, you can. We, we always have specials. <laugh>
Speaker 5 00:31:49 That's why we hiring. They
Speaker 1 00:31:50 Can help protect your agency.
Speaker 3 00:31:51 Yeah. Yeah. What, what what's, how do you get, how do you leverage term again, to start a conversation with the prospect that you want to, that you, that you can see there's potential here for a bigger project, but I just wanna get my foot in the door.
Speaker 5 00:32:05 Yeah. So a foot in the door strategy is when, when you start to get it, doesn't have to be term again, if you just start to learn about your role as the web designer and building lead, generating websites, but having everything in mind, when once, once you pick up the knowledge of what you need to disclose as a professional web agency, as it relates to privacy, you have an edge on competitors. And, and I guess this is salesy, but this is just genuinely how I feel. Because once you start to like, understand a tool like term again, you're gonna start to see websites that are clearly not doing things correctly with website policies. And mm-hmm, <affirmative> that to me is yet again, one of those types of foot in the door type opportunities to kind of raise awareness of like, look, you're collecting regulated data. You know, I don't know what your plans are, but if you haven't updated your website in a while, you know, maybe we can talk about some opportunities on how to build a fully comprehensive website. So that's really a roughed up, I would have to, you know,
Speaker 3 00:33:03 Because otherwise you can come across as being quite spammy, right? Like, Hey, I was checking out your website and it doesn't like your privacy policies compliant, and you're gonna get your ass sued, but I can help you for a hundred bucks. Exactly. How do you, cause that's what I would do. How do, cause I'm not very sophisticated. So how do you avoid that? Like how do you, what's the, the, uh, the angle to tactfully? Uh, it's like the carrot and the stick, isn't it? How do you whack someone with a stick, but do it tastefully?
Speaker 5 00:33:27 So I'm, I love sales. I love helping people and that's why I love sales. So I, as a sales person, I personally think that term again is not like gonna be some sort of magical lead generator where it's going to just open all doors and give you all this business. But what I do see it being is a representation for your comprehensive knowledge of what makes a website. Great. And that's why I think like, it might not be like that, that like initial thing that you do that starts a conversation. But I think it's, while you're having the conversation, you being able to demonstrate that you have a lot more knowledge than just building a high converting website, that, you know, what it takes to build a great website.
Speaker 0 00:36:08 And when do I get, you know, is it after you start? Is it before? And they're like, we just never thought of that, you know? Yeah. So it's a really great conversation to have. And I think going back to y'all's point when it comes to a sales tool, I don't really sell this in, in any first calls. You know, we, it usually is discussed when I'm presenting the proposal. I say, oh, by the way, we're gonna do this for you. Um, but I do like Troy's idea of just not, it's not a separate item. If you're on my premier care plan, then it's just included, we're doing this for you. I'll share it. You know, you're still gonna have access to term again. And it is term again, brands all over the place, but it's not, you don't have to pay an additional fee until you decide to leave. But yeah, I think part of the sales is just having that conversation again. I know what I'm talking about. I'm authority, I'm an expert in my field and here's why.
Speaker 3 00:36:57 Yeah. Do you guys,
Speaker 5 00:36:59 Sorry.
Speaker 3 00:36:59 Sorry. Do you guys, do you guys do e-commerce like shipping and returns policies and
Speaker 1 00:37:04 Absolutely. Yes. Um, so cancellation policy shipping policies, um, returns, refunds, warranties, remedies, all of that is included in the terms of service. And another thing to think about is put yourself in the shoes of the consumer too. So if I'm buying something online, my first question is, am I going to be able to return this? If it doesn't work for me and I look at their terms of service, and if it doesn't include that information, I'll go somewhere else. That tells me exactly what I need to know. I'm not gonna contact the business and ask them for their returns policy. I'm not gonna waste my time. So having all of that information included in your terms, if you have an eCommerce website, whether it's good services or digital products is very, very helpful in moving that consumer towards making a purchase. At least when I buy stuff, it's like that for me. And I'm sure it's like that for a lot of people.
Speaker 5 00:37:54 And Troy, a very cool thing about our returns, cancellations and stuff like that is Donatos mentioned earlier, we've integrated consumer protection laws spanning multiple countries. And we'll give you alerts. Like if you're trying to do something that's not allowed, um, a
Speaker 1 00:38:09 Great, and you can still proceed, even if it's not allowed true. If you wanna break law, that's up to you. But we do provide you with those notifications. If you're from the UK or Australia, us doesn't really have consumer protection laws that apply to terms of service. So it's kind of with the wild west out here, but if you are in one of those countries, would you provide you with notifications with what's allowed what's not allowed what you should do, what you
Speaker 5 00:38:31 Shouldn't do. And I, and I have a fun fact for you. Did you know, if you're an Ireland resident that your consumer protection rights give you the ability to buy something and then return it for full price refund up to seven years after buying it Move to Ireland and buy a car and just return
Speaker 3 00:38:52 To back. I'm done me a refund. Isn't
Speaker 5 00:38:55 That seven years
Speaker 3 00:38:57 I, I have a philosophical conversation. Could Dera could derail things a little bit. Tell me why does privacy matter?
Speaker 5 00:39:07 So in my, on, yeah, I'll let you digest it. I have some initial immediate thoughts. Um, the one thing I've been really focused on is I don't like how everyone thinks about, oh, well, it's just because of remarketing. And like, I'm just gonna get more relevant ads to me. Like, I don't think that's a, I don't think that's a valuable reason to respect the right to privacy. I'm a big believer in that it is a right to have, there is a right to privacy that people should have, and we don't know what will happen if people lose that. If people lose privacy rights, mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I, I speak to that, thinking about other laws that have passed in America, like, well, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna decline from speaking specifics. Um, just cuz I don't want this to become a political thing, but mm-hmm, <affirmative> the moment people lose rights is when I think the moment they can be taken more advantage of and mm-hmm <affirmative> lose. I mean it's losing rights, lack the lack of ability to say things they may wanna say and stuff like that. So I would say that the right to privacy is important because we don't know what will happen if people don't have a right to privacy.
Speaker 3 00:40:08 Mm, interesting.
Speaker 1 00:40:10 Yeah. Uh, for me, so privacy is generally defined as the right to be left alone. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and to me, I think that's very, very important is the ability to not be inundated with things that I don't necessarily want to see. Um, you know, whether it's ads, whether it's the incessant text messages that are, that are used for marketing without people's permission, things like that are just very annoying to people. Um, and whether or not you think that privacy matters to you doing those things can tarnish your reputation as a brand. Um, it really can because if somebody receives something from you that they didn't wanna get, like, for example, if I get a text message from you at 3:00 AM, that's, you know, a marketing text and obviously no one here has done that. Um, you know, sorry, I've never received a text from anyone here, you know,
Speaker 3 00:41:03 A matter of timem didn't
Speaker 1 00:41:04 Know you are annoyed by that and they won't want to do business with you. Yeah. You know, so it, people no longer think that, okay. I can just give up my information for this discount and all I get is a discount and then we're done and I'm happy. No, it follows you around and follows you for, for months and years and years and years. And that's something that's very annoying to consumers. Um, and it's something that can make consumers stop wanting to do business with you. And I think in a business setting, that's probably why privacy is important is not losing
Speaker 3 00:41:34 Customers. What, what, what about, what about like, what about things like identity theft?
Speaker 5 00:41:39 So identity theft. Well, I'll have to think about that. You think about that one? I wanna go back to the philosophy question,
Speaker 3 00:41:46 Right? Yeah. I mean, because, because there, there are like particularly, you know, or, or credit card theft, for example, right. Like, I mean there are, there are, uh, I mean there was a story, you know, years ago, woo themes had a horrible experience, uh, back in, I think it was like, I wanna say maybe 2015, maybe I was at word camp Europe and they'd just been through a horrible experience. They had a whole bunch of customer, their customer database was hacked and a whole bunch of credit cards were stolen and it was awful. And they'd made a decision not to, not to, not, to not to host customer credit card details on filing one. I think they went back to a PayPal checkout back then. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but I mean, there, there, there are, there are my wife's a psychologist, right? So, so we have like, I mean, we don't have a home phone number, but her mobile number is silent.
Speaker 3 00:42:32 Our address is like not listed. Uh, she's very conscious of like people not knowing, you know, her name on Facebook is not her real name. Um, you know, she goes by Cindy Crawford on Facebook, which is, you know, um, um, so, so she, whereas me, I'm like, I don't give a shit, put a chip in my head and follow me around and broadcast my life on YouTube. I don't give a, like, I had nothing to hide. Right. In fact, you know, like if people find that interesting, they're a bit sad if they wanna follow me around and watch my life. So, uh, where, so I'm like the polar opposite. I don't, I don't, I actually don't, I have random strangers like walk, like watch me through the window and I'd go, how you doing? It's good. Like, it wouldn't bother me at all. Right. I'd get off on that. So I'm like the opposite end of the spectrum. And um, but now that we've got kids, I kind of get that there is something about protecting the, like they're not on Facebook. Like my kids are not on social media. We don't take photos.
Speaker 0 00:43:24 I don't share birthdays. I don't post all the hap so happy she got this award and I don't need any
Speaker 3 00:43:30 Of that. Cause I know how the algorithm works and I'm like, you stay away from my fucking children. Yeah. So, but I'm happy to exploit the algorithm for my own commercial benefit. <laugh> so, um, because I'm a capitalist that I'm allowed to do that. So, but I'm curious like is, is like privacy is not just about retargeting and it's not just about receiving text messages. I mean, there are deeper implications of having your, I mean, I go through my one password vault, right? I'm like, holy shit, there are 850 companies on the internet that have my email address and my first name and probably my phone number and my address and my credit card. And my that's only a matter of time before.
Speaker 0 00:44:06 Oh, it's done. What do you mean? Matter of time. Yeah. That's your address and phone it's out there. It's you know, when you get all these targets been, been hacked in your email and phone numbers, I'm like, that's such old news at this point. I assume my number's out there. I assume everything's out there. So it's just a protection on
Speaker 3 00:44:23 Personal. I think the deeply implic, I mean, I don't give a shit about people ringing me and trying to sell me stuff. Cause I ain't fun with them. Like I it's, it's a game for me. I love it. Cuz they're really, most of 'em are really, uh, especially the guys that pretend to be from Amazon that wanna clarify your account details. I'm like really I'll play the game. <laugh> oh, I, it happens, happens a couple of times a week and they're awful at it. And I tell 'em, I'm like, dude, you're an awful scam to do. Like, you dunno what you're doing. Right. Let me hang with me for a bit. Brother, I'll teach you thing or two. Um, but it's really the identity theft that, that it's like having my passport, like, like they're being like a terrorist attack somewhere. And then me being identified as one of the perpetrators or one of the, or being involved because my passport was used right. As fol. That's the thing that Frans the shit outta me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. And so, you know, I, I do, as I, as I get older and I have children and I become, I pretend to become more responsible. I do, I am actually getting a little bit concerned about privacy, but it's not from a marketing thing. It's like, it's, it's having my identity stolen, I think. Right. I'll just get my passport. If you, I can hold it up to the screen from the screenshot and then we're done. Right.
Speaker 1 00:45:25 You know, there's a couple things that go there. Right? So a great example is facial recognition. So a lot of software now, a lot of phones, a lot of stores use facial recognition, um, without the consumer's permission or even knowledge, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and that facial recognition can be used later on to potentially create defects or transpose your facial image over somebody else who robbed that store. Right. Mm-hmm um, or, or somebody who assaulted somebody by that store. Um, or you could be incorrectly identified as that person who committed that assault. Um, if your facial features that are relatively similar to the person who did that and, or biometrics can't be changed, so you can change your passport number, get a new social security number, um, you know, get a new license, things like that. You can't change your facial biometrics, you can't change your fingerprint. Um, things like that can't be changed. Um, and those privacy violations will follow you for the rest of your life. Um, you know, unauthorized charges on your card. Um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, people taking loans or mortgages out in, in your name, things like that. And
Speaker 3 00:46:31 <laugh> oh wow.
Speaker 1 00:46:31 But one thing that we don't really think about is societal norms and expectations. So the things that companies know about you today, they create a profile of you, right? And they use that profile for targeting and ads and, and whatever. And we can look past that violation regardless of how annoying it is. But let's say that right now you have a dog, right? And we have dogs too. And the societal norm right now is that it's completely normal to have dogs. Everybody has dogs. It's great. We love them. Let's say 10 years from now, owning a dog becomes something that's really horrible. Right. It becomes a taboo. And now, because that profile was created of you, you're known as this horrible dog owner, right? So societal norms and expectations change. And if there's profiles built about you that had this information, that's really innocent now, right. Nobody can use that information against you that you're a dog owner, but if those societal norms change, all of a sudden that information can become extremely damaging to
Speaker 0 00:47:30 You. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have, we see it happening now all the time, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:34 That into privacy to have that information deleted about you, that information can follow you and turn against you in the future as well. So that's, to me that's probably the most scary part of, of privacy violations is what can happen in the future? Like yes, now they use it to target ads and send you text, but what
Speaker 5 00:47:52 Can in the future? So I can't help, but jump in and maybe I can articulate how the philosophical question, like why does privacy matter? And, and my one, an my one sentence response would be because I don't want to live out a black mirror experience. OK. But I really mean it that way because black mirror plays out scenarios of what the future could look like. And that's why it's so eerie to anyone who watches this. Like, ah, I could see it come becoming this. And like, yeah. And privacy rights are a fight back towards that, towards that dystopian type of look and feel. And, and you know, I'm not trying to be a DOR here. Like, look, I, I,
Speaker 0 00:48:27 So China has got a very strict, you know, when it comes to their social credits.
Speaker 5 00:48:31 Oh gosh. Right.
Speaker 0 00:48:32 When you look at what China's done, that's a black mirror episode right there. And then living
Speaker 5 00:48:37 Episode. Yeah, absolutely. To think that that's where we're at right now, when smartphone didn't even exist. 10 years ago, and we're already at that stage, like mm-hmm <affirmative> so, so I, I can't predict what the future will be like, but what I can say is the world would be in a better place if we human beings have rights to our privacy. And yeah. And because there's so many ways this could get very slippery very quickly.
Speaker 1 00:48:57 Actually, I have a great example
Speaker 5 00:48:58 Real quick, hold on real quick. It goes back to what, um, choice that about identity theft. So when I think of identity theft, I think about one person's identity getting stolen and it kind of caught me off guard there, but really how does identity theft happen in bulk? Well, that's through a data breach, a data breach is occurring when a company's database gets ha gets hacked. And if people don't have privacy laws out there, a company in theory, doesn't even have to disclose the fact that they were breached. And how horrifying of an idea is that where a company doesn't have a legal obligation to disclose to their users like, Hey, we got breached. Like that's a, that's an issue that I, I believe that people who gave data to a company, they have a right to know, did my data get breached? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, can I delete my data ahead of time in case I don't want them to have that data that they don't necessarily need?
Speaker 1 00:49:45 Yeah. I have a real quick, I have a really good example of what happens when there's a lack of privacy rights. And this actually happened to me. So I am a resident of Illinois and I have essentially no privacy rights because I reside here and we have no comprehensive privacy law, unless you're talking about biometrics. Anyways, I used to have an Amazon account used to have, so what happened was I received an email saying that my account password has been changed and I never requested that account password to be changed. I tried to go into my account, can't get in. It turns out that my account got hacked and it had all of my information, my past purchases, my credit card information, my address, like the addresses of my family members that I bought gifts for before mm-hmm <affirmative> and I contacted Amazon saying, Hey, you need to lock down this account because it's been hacked.
Speaker 1 00:50:33 You never sent me a password confirmation email, like nothing mm-hmm <affirmative> and they refused to do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I asked, can you delete my account then? And they refused to do it. Can you delete my information? No, we can't. And they tried to reset my account. They send, sent the information to reset the account to the scammer. I mean, it was just a nightmare and I didn't have the right to ask for my personal information to be delete it. So this person had access to all of this information, could use it, however they wanted to do it. And Amazon refused to do anything and I didn't have the right to, to have it deleted. So I was basically just shit outta luck. And what I ended up doing, because I'm a privacy lawyer is I contacted my state's attorney general complained and then my account was deleted really quickly, but that,
Speaker 0 00:51:21 Oh my God. But you had to go to that, that,
Speaker 1 00:51:24 Yeah,
Speaker 5 00:51:24 That's a great example. The one person
Speaker 1 00:51:26 You have to go to have your information deleted, even though know for a fact that a scammer had access to it and ran what happens when you don't have privacy rights. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:51:37 And I wouldn't we're we're jumping into philosophy. This is, this is not an official position.
Speaker 3 00:51:43 No, no, no. I drag this here.
Speaker 5 00:51:44 Human beings talking, you know, what does this world look like without?
Speaker 3 00:51:46 Yeah, totally. So it's interesting. Like how quickly societal norms change. Right? I was born in the seventies, kind of grew up in the, in the late seventies and the eighties. I have a bunch of books from my childhood called golden circle books. And they have this kind of gold spine and they're all on the top shelf of Oscar's bookshelf. He's now four. And he he's like, I wanna read one of these at night. We reading books, we him like 800 books every night before he goes to bed, it's a fucking production. It's like a two hour panto on just to get the kid in bed. And I take one of these books off the shelf and it's the little old lady who lives in his shoe. And I'm like, oh, we'll read you this story. The little old lady who is in his shoe, who spanks her children every night before they go to bed. Right. I'm like, oh, hang on. No, no, uh, we can't, I'll just close the book before we get to that. Right. And then, uh, we are reading Hansel and GLE, which is traumatic. The stepmother. I'd never read it before. Right. I'm reading. And I'm like, oh, this is a happy book. The stepmother leaves them in the woods to perish. And they happen to find a way to
Speaker 0 00:52:40 Buy a little old lady.
Speaker 3 00:52:42 I fucking cook them. I'm like, what the hell? So anyway, so now we have this funny thing where whenever I'm talking about, you know, when daddy grew up, Oscar says, oh, is that back in the old days where people used to smack their children? <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:52:57 Oh my God. Oh my God.
Speaker 3 00:52:59 Yes, that's right. That's what used to happen in the seventies. Right. And sometimes I'll say to him, you're lucky. It's not the seventies, dude. You're lucky. It's not the seventies.
Speaker 0 00:53:06 Right. I've got a book from Germany, from the sixties where I, I still have it. It, it it's purpose was to scare children, purposely scared children. And it's a, you can find it. It's, it's old, but it's from the thirties and forties. My mother gave it to me and it's like a, a kid that kept sucking his thumb. He cut, they cut his thumbs off. Wow. The book has blood squirting out of his hands with this dude with a scissor. Oh. And that's what I grew up with. I grew up with books like that. Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 3 00:53:37 So span. So this is, we're talking a generation, we're talking like a generation and things have changed.
Speaker 1 00:53:44 So 30 years were gonna say, can you believe that companies used to just take our data and do whatever they wanted with it? And we couldn't do anything about
Speaker 5 00:54:05 So it, yeah. So,
Speaker 0 00:55:12 But what if you're doing Google analytics,
Speaker 5 00:55:14 That's collecting IP address and sharing that data with data analytics
Speaker 0 00:55:35 If you want. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's even more of a selling point. Then I gotta put that in my proposal.
Speaker 1 00:55:58 Simple. There's websites out there that don't collect it
Speaker 5 00:56:02 Possible there. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:56:03 Uh, Jayden wanted to know your credentials again, Jayden, just go to term again, dot com and go to the about us page and ANATAS credentials are there, uh, as our ERs, but I think's credentials in this case, hands are probably more and a little more comprehensive. May I?
Speaker 5 00:56:20 My, my bios at the bottom, like, you know, oh,
Speaker 1 00:56:23 By the way, Hans too.
Speaker 5 00:56:24 Yeah. Like, like a crappy photo of me. Like <laugh>, here's
Speaker 1 00:56:29 Hans. Yeah. I'm a JD, um, licensed to practice in Illinois and a certified information. Privacy.
Speaker 5 00:56:35 There you go.
Speaker 3 00:56:35 Awesome. And the, and the chair of the EPRI committee in the American bar association, there you go. And Chicago chapter chair of the international association, privacy professionals.
Speaker 6 00:56:46 <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:56:47 I got nothing. I'm a university dropout. Um, Hey, this is the agency hour. We are, we're actually, Pete's renamed at the agency almost hour. Uh, we are almost at the hour here. Um, term again, dot com is where you go to, uh, get a piece of the action. Let them know, let the guys know that you came from agency Mavericks and they will give you not one, but two free lifetime licenses. One for your website, one, you can resell to your mother-in-law for however much you can get, uh, and then have a conversation with them about how you can use term again as part of your ongoing recurring revenue plans. Uh, that's awesome. Thank you so much for being here an hour earlier than you expected because of the time zones. Really appreciate it. And congratulations on launching in Australia. I think I'll get my team, get in touch with you, and maybe you can do an audit of our privacy policies and let us know where we, um, are broken and how to fix it. That would be, uh, that would be cool. I,
Speaker 5 00:57:36 I promise you we'll be comprehensive. So
Speaker 1 00:57:38 <laugh> thank you for having us. This is really fun.
Speaker 3 00:57:42 Excellent. No worries. Hey, we're gonna bounce. Thanks very much for being here. Uh, Han inata from aged. Thanks again. Bye.
Speaker 1 00:57:48 Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:57:49 Thanks Christina chow.
Speaker 2 00:57:51 Thanks for listening to the agency, our podcast, subscribe at apple podcasts, Spotify, audible, and wherever you like to listen, you can catch all of the agency hour episodes on our YouTube channel at youtube.com/agency Mavericks. Or you can get involved, check out our free digital Mavericks Facebook group, where we broadcast these episodes live for our community every week, along with a ton of free training. We'll see you there.