Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: So I think it's worth sometimes to just say, let's spend a week together. I'll buy a week of your time if I was a client. To get your best people here, sit together all day in a meeting room, putting stupid drawings up on the wall and bouncing off ideas and something like that. And then you bring in the production company, the cool guys, but you know, the idea will work.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Welcome to the Agency Hour podcast where we help web design and digital agency owners create abundance for themselves, their teams and their communities. This week we're joined by Casper cslu all the way from Copenhagen, Denmark. Casper is the CCO at Zeit. And in this episode we're going to be unpacking some surprising insights from the in house Marketing Barometer report where he interviewed over 1,000 people and what it reveals about the evolution of in house teams, the pros and cons of today's agency models and how to position your agency as an essential partner, not just a vendor. And, and why treating your own agency like a client could be the key to unlocking long term growth with your clients and so much more. I'm Johnny Flash, stay with us.
Hey Casper, how's it going?
[00:01:13] Speaker A: I'm good, how are you?
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Good.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: Glad to have you, man. I'm so great to have you on here. I gotta ask because I know you're in Denmark and we have a lot of listeners that are always, you know, that are in small areas as well and have to kind of be able to reach outside their area. How have you grown? I mean just give us a little, little insight into like how you've kind of grown your, you know, your audience and just your clients and everything being, you know, having to go global. I guess so.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: I'm from a traditional agency background which is small in Denmark. We are like 5 million people here. 5.5 or something like that. So you have to be global.
I used to be head of creative at Maersk, big logistics company and that's global. Right? So that's a lot of, a lot of containers, a lot of offices, a lot of people around the world and then some, some other globalish companies that I've been working with. So I think it's, it's, it's, that's how it ended up. Our company is based in, in, in Denmark but we also have offices in Germany and the UK and Sweden and Norway. So it's, it's like northern Europe based and that's, I think that's how we, we scaled.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. I have to give you my quick Merce story, since you brought it up. We, for my wife and I went on an anniversary trip a year ago and we were staying in like a tiny house and it was made out of like some mer shipping containers that had been completely like retrofitted into like a nice place to stay. But it was, we were in a shipping container. Immersed shipping container for the first day.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Which is, yeah, I remember. I think that thing started back, it's been 10, 12 years since, since I was there. And I think that kind of idea started back then that people started buying these old containers because they, they were actually getting, I think they had like a, I don't know, 20 year life cycle before they, they actually have to do something else with them. So there's a lot of containers up there.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was great. Well, cool. So I gotta ask also about your. I know you're, you're working on your in house marketing barometer report that's due to come out soon and I was wondering if you could give us a little, give a background on it and then if you give us some little sneak peek takeaways, I'd love to hear some of the insights that you're gaining from all the marketing research you've done.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. So I know I'm in dangerous territories here because it's an agency podcast and I'm talking in house.
But one of the interesting things, I think so the level of companies that has in house agencies is around we have 65%. I saw a Boston Consulting Group report from last year saying 72%. It's a bit difficult because it's not as easy as you would say. Some of them, they have kind of in house agencies kind of grow in two ways. Sometimes it's deliberate. So people sit down, they do a lot of math and they say we're going to do this and we build it. The put a. They come up with a name like Heinz. They have the kitchen. Kaft Heinz. They have the kitchen.
But the other half of them is just, you know, organically growing by somebody in marketing. Say we need a graphic designer. Can you just hire someone in. Or a social media manager. And so it's, and, and marketing is not, it's, it's, it's not a fixed thing. Sometimes it's a lot of web design that's kind of like one spectrum and the other one is copywriting. Classical agency discipline, so to speak. So, so we, we kind of say if you have more creative developing skills in there, we call it an in house agency. That's not really an insight into the reporters just to say how we kind of mention it's not as simple as such.
I think one of the really interesting things this year in the report is the growth in taking in more creative tasks. And now I'm really putting myself out there in this podcast because previously when we looked at it there's been three or four waves. So it started out by being purely production, just something about scaling things, having graphic designers to versioning brochures and something like that. And then you had the social media area from around 2005 ish and coming on where you brought in in the beginning just organic social media content people and so on and then more paid and performance thing. And what we're seeing in the last five years is, is more creative people so kind of still more strategic creative art directors. We can see that in the titles. They're more chief creative officers and so on.
That said, it also seems like there's a kind of a wave going the other way saying maybe that's too much because we still need that outside in perspective where you actually hire someone who worked with a lot of different brands that has more diverse look at how things should be done or can draw in inspiration from outside. But that's one of the interesting thing and of course I mean I have to say AI and tick is really, really, really big.
Everybody is testing things out. I think right now it's, it's, it's, it's the AI agents or, or at least automated flows where you can build avatars that you can. I just had a meeting today with a, one of our agencies that want to build local employees talking in their local language but just typing it in and it's, the quality is getting there. So, so that's really one of the things.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: So in interview. So if I, if I'm hearing you correctly in interviewing the, these thousand plus marketing professionals in, in for your report and kind of what you've put together, you're seeing an increase in in house marketing teams at large companies that they're, they're growing their teams or they didn't have an in house marketing team, they're adding those. Is that what I'm hearing you say?
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Yeah, so, so the growth has been coming from the last, for the last seven, eight years. It's like it's flattening out now at a some kind of 70% level.
But it's the, but the, the, the, the type of things they're doing is shifting so it's more Moving up the scale from just being graphic designers. Just no offense, I used to be a graphic designer.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: Yeah, no offense to any of the graphic designers listening. Right.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: That's me actually to be more creative strategist and something like that. Hiring in some companies are hiring in chief creative officers or head of creative to oversee the way that they use external agencies. So those things. That's, that's an interesting.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think a lot of people listening would be potentially that external agency that's providing some kind of, you know, creative support. Whether it's, you know, one of our agency mavericks is. One of our mavericks is a video production company working with big huge brands, you know, household names here in the US at least in terms of that. And they're doing video production stuff for them. Obviously they're not their full marketing arm for the, you know, these brands have big in house marketing teams but they're being hired to do, you know, video production or might be doing some kind of e commerce website or this or that for the brand. But it's just one piece of the overall marketing engine for some of these companies. So I think that is, you know, a lot of the folks listening to this would be, would be supporting some of those in house marketing teams with some of the stuff that they're doing.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean would especially say like production companies. We don't see a lot of that. We do see.
So Europe is definitely smaller. I'm from smaller countries so we don't see. I haven't seen anyone bringing in big production companies to be fair.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Maybe you know, that one not bringing them in house. They're using them, they're just not using them.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: So, so, so they're using production companies. Sometimes they do skip the agency. So they have the creative, you know, control in house and go directly to a production company or. But they might hire in those, you know, one man band things with a camera that can do content on the go. It's not really new but it's, it's, it's growing a bit. Video of course. Yeah.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: So for those agency owners that are listening that are maybe have some clients that have in house marketing companies that they're supporting. Like how do they make themselves more valuable to those in house marketing teams? Because I think, you know that that's a real issue that a lot of us face, you know, in terms of working with some of these clients.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: So what, what we are doing and what we are seeing is actually more collaborative. So instead of going, you know, have a brief go back and then go back with the cardboard and say tada. Like the Mad Men thing, there's a lot of collaboration sitting together with the marketing team, coming up with ideas together, bouncing them off on a really early stage, valuable stage, where you present your, your, your sketches and something like that.
Because I think that's one of the things when we look into the report that, that marketing people are, are getting a bit tired of. That's the whole, you know, somebody coming from the outside and working with this for, for two weeks and then tell me how my business is.
And of course we all love the old Mad Men thing, but in reality the people working with marketing in the companies are pretty skilled. Normally they know their business. So that kind of collaboration where you bounce things off is the thing we're seeing right now. So I would say focus more on being the creative partner because that's still a thing. Play together.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: AI hasn't replaced us yet, right?
[00:11:49] Speaker A: No, I mean you can have, we use a lot of AI, but it's like having a bad assistant, right?
You ask for 20 ideas and you get 19. That's totally bad. But one of them might spark something that you can use, but it's faster and better and so on. So that way where you as the creative people, you created person, you can, you can see those.
Yeah, those ideas, those needles in the haystack, so to speak. So, so I think that's, that's where I would, that's where we are focusing. That's being more creative or more production, not trying to be the, the full scale agency that can help with everything and do anything.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. And one of the things that we teach in our agency Mavericks program is about, you know, doing some kind of digital roadmap with a client to really understand where they're at, how we can collaborate with them and then putting a plan together to be able to work with them. I think that that's thinking the context of what we're talking about. That's really helpful. I'd love to shift gears slightly because I know you also have a production house that's got hundreds of people doing all kinds of things from, you know, building, making the videos to doing the SEO, to doing the design, the quality checks and stuff.
We, you know, we all have different size teams in terms of people listening to this and stuff, but I think we all have similar struggles regardless of whether we got five people on our team, 20 people on our team, 50, 100, whatever, you know, in terms of like getting people to have the same passion and the quality that we do as you know, owners or designers or managers and so talk if a little bit of, you know, that, of kind of what you've seen like work and how you get so many, you know, people moving in the right direction and caring the way that you care and that kind of stuff, I'd love to just hear any insights you have there.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: So I might go in two different directions, but we do have a big production company in, in Vietnam. We do a lot of work for, for lego boxes and 3D motion on the website and so on. And it's just, I mean, when we talk about in house, there's also, you know, some things make sense to have, you know, proximity, you can stand and look on the screen. But some things, I mean, you don't have to look on the screen. Something rendering or doing this 360 turn or something. That's way better to have that in a place where you can have bigger computers.
And of course the salary is different. It's not that different actually, but there's a different work ethics to it.
And then it's a lot about quality and control.
One of the things to go on the other direction that we talked about when I started out in house was it used to be going in house like the dead burial ground for creative people slowing down.
But I don't think it's like that. I think there's a lot of great creativity coming from knowing the brand better and only working with, with one brand and actually going, you know, digging deep into it.
It's, it's mostly when you work with a complicated product. So we work with a lot of B2B companies or. Yeah, I worked at Maersk. So understanding international trades and different commodities, how, you know, fish go from one market to another, how the car industry or automotive industry is, is built up, something like that, that would take the agency a long time to, to understand.
So it can be in the, in the complex area or it could be a lot of different markets, different languages where you need to understand how translation or cultural differences in terms of, of, of working with, you know. Yeah, yeah. Markets.
But what I mean, I, I go around to our agencies and show them the best of can, all the super bowl commercials and talk about why these are great, most of them, or at least the great ones I pick out talk about creativity and why it's important because I think that's the purpose of what we're doing. That's creativity.
I mean it, it's not showing more to people. There's. I think there's plenty of content out There. There's probably enough content out there. You don't need to produce more. You need to do something that sticks. That's why. That's why we do marketing in the first place. So we talk a lot about creativity and better. Do better and more creative and something that you recognize than just doing a lot of stuff. You can't really bore people to buy your products, as I think burnback or one point. I don't know.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: So you're saying quality over quantity is what I hear you saying. Right. In terms of there's plenty of junk out there. We can have AI spit out all kinds of, like you said, 20 examples, and there might be one decent one in there. But I think it's trying to figure out, like, what's. Like you said, what's really going to stick. What's, you know, spend more. What I hear you saying, spend more time on less stuff and make it really good and memorable and stand out than kind of just spitting out a bunch of stuff. Right.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think. And that's why the agency is still relevant, I think.
Yeah. Talking about AI. So we do. I just came out of a meeting today. You know, building avatars that can speak local languages better than hiring in an actor and setting up everything. But the one recording we're doing has to be great because it's better for us to do a Polish version or Spanish version or a French version with someone that looks natural and speaks French or Polish or Spanish or Chinese than just creating more stuff that's not really interesting or picking eyeballs at all. But on the other hand, I think you still need to do that one thing that people will notice. And maybe it's not even digital. Maybe it's something in the real world where people will take notice of it in reality.
And that's just one idea that's just great. I think that's where the industry is going at the moment.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Some of these clients that you have, I imagine you've been working with a while, you know, in terms of some of these big brands, like, how do you. How do you continue to cultivate some of those relationships so that the client that we love right now, who's a big client for us, is still the client that we love and a big client for us, you know, two, three, four, five years from now.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: So we have, like, at least two things we do. So one of them is the really boring part. So that's the math. So we track everything in our site system where it's like Monday, it's just not Putting off Monday, but it's just better so tracking how many proofs, everything is in control. Instead of emails going back and forth, you have all the communication for all the tasks there. Also when you move them back and forth from Vietnam or to the UK or something like that, it's the same system, but in that system we also time track and we use that for resource booking so we know how long things take. That's the boring part that's telling people how much did we do this month? You know, how much did you actually get from using us instead of trying to do it yourself?
The other part is, is getting that recognition. So that's by, you know, classical advertising agency stuff. Get recognition, win awards, do something that people talk about.
Because I really believe that that still works. So doing something spectacular and get, you know, some kind of recognition for, you know, PR materials, awards.
Talk about it like I'm doing now.
It's difficult when you sit close to people to say, oh I have this great idea, say yeah, but I also have an idea and you have to, you know, prove that you are actually good. So it's, it's, it's like you're saying.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Like build, keep, continue. Do I hear you say continuing to build your own authority as you're working with the client so they value the input that you're giving. Is that what I'm hearing?
[00:20:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's actually my old boss at Maersk who used to say this, who said people here, they don't really know if you're good or bad, but if you get external recognition, you are shortlisted for something, you win an award, you are, you know, you're talking at some event or something then people say, oh, that guy, he's, he's probably good. So, so that's really important when you have an in house agency to get that external recognition and of course measure that you know what you're doing is, is, is, is working, has an effect, of course.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: So when you're working with a brand, like just to take it a step further, when you're working with a brand like Lego or Jaguar or whatever and you're, you're doing different things for them and hopefully it's a good relationship and you're wanting to keep doing work for them. How, how do you, how, how does this play out like in, in a real sense then what, what we're talking about with kind of building those client relationships for the long term.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: So, so it could be two things. So one of them is like doing the best of, can show and tell people, why is this great?
So Jo. So actually showing something great also in. I like to invite people in. It's of course a bit scary sometimes, but coming into that room and say, okay, let's spend the whole, the entire day just putting up ideas for the next campaign. On the wall, we only have white paper and a black marker to, to draw something. And hopefully I'm good enough and the people I have is good enough to do the better ideas. But sometimes my shitty idea sparks something in the client and he will draw a better drawing or do a better idea than me. But I think that's fine. That's in the collaboration.
So, so trust in, in that, that you can actually bring that process in and do it together with, with the client or whatever in the, the marketing team.
I think that's, that's also a way to show that you, you know what you're doing, that you're willing to, to, to show up with, with nothing and, and, and develop ideas on the spot.
Of course you go back and refine them and twist and turn and all the, you know, copywriter twist and turn the words and, and do the, the better side of it. But, but yeah, yeah.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: So client collaboration goes a long way in terms of kind of building as a partner and then also not holding your own ideas too tightly. Right. Because sometimes we get so attached to our design, our, our concept, whatever, and like, that may or may not be the best one. And so being willing to say, like, hey, I'm just throwing this stuff out there and if the client kind of, or somebody on the team or whatever has other ideas, like not holding our stuff too tightly. Right.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And one of the things I've, I've seen is, is when you go back to the computer and I've seen that with, I'm old now, so with some of the younger people, you know, they sit back and, you know, you're not allowed to watch their screen and they do everything perfect, beautiful. It really looks like an ad. But they invest so much in developing it that they also end up loving that idea, even though the idea is bad. So I would rather have them draw it really bad, badly with a mark marker. Put up a headline that's spelled wrong or something and put it up on the wall. Because if it's funny, then it will also be funny when you bring in the Industrial Light and Magic and do the whole 3D AI thing.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: No, but you bring up such a good point because I think so often we don't involve, we don't involve the Client or whoever needs the approval early enough and we get concepts too far down, you know, the track and then we're like, hey, what do you think of this really polished thing? And they're like, this is not what I wanted at all. And you're like, oh shoot, I gotta start all over, you know, versus kind of getting that input early and often I think that that goes a long way in terms of getting the buy in right from the client and the in the direction. Correct. So that we're not having to waste a lot of time and effort.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I have, I have like an old boss coming in and we were, everything was, was up there and he said, well, at least we know what not to do. And then he know, so, so then, then rather have it like bad sketches and trying to explain what's going on and something like that. And I think, I mean, I don't know if this is true, it's just an assumption, but I'm. Most of the people I know working in marketing, it's not because they love spreadsheets or doing budgets and something like that. It's because they actually fell in love with the ideas and creativity. So most of the time I think they actually like to be involved and work, you know, side by side. They know that this is what you do. So you're probably good at this. You're probably also better at drawing and you prepare. Of course you have your tools and your methodology in terms of how you create ideas and how you do this, how you do the Persona or the user journey and something like that. But if you do it together, I think there's also much more buy in from the client and I think that's one of the benefits by in housing. But it's not owned by in housing. Any, any agency could, could do that and actually, you know, collaborate more.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and you bring up another point too in that like, you know, there's something valuable about being in person with someone and in the room and collaborating, but we're in such a digital age that more and more like my client, I just see over zoom or whatever and I just, you know, it's like mostly or completely digital, but there is something valuable when you can kind of just make the time, whether it's like a few hours or part of a day, especially for your top clients, that you really want to build those connections with. You know, sharing the meal or having the brainstorm session or whatever. Like there's just something different about it, isn't there, when you're in person than when it's all, I think so.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: And I think it's, it's worth the travel. So I live two or three hours away from, from our offices because they're all, all over the place. So. And I think it's worth the travel also. It's kind of, maybe it's counterintuitive, but sometimes it's, it's better to take it slow than, and create that one idea but in a very low involvement space where you draw stuff and you, and you really like that idea. We did, we did a campaign for Hyundai and they, they had to be out next week with a campaign, outdoor campaign.
But we did it that way and said, oh, but can we see something? We have plenty of time to do the nice stuff. I mean, it's just a photo of a car anyway. It's the headline or the idea or something that.
But if we start by shooting and start by doing everything and we can't decide, then we spend a lot of time going back and forth on a final product that's not really great maybe and try to fix something. So I think it's worth sometimes to just say let's.
And I used to work with agencies that way at some of the companies I was in. Let's spend a week together. I'll buy a week of your time if I was a client to get your best people here, sit together all day in a meeting room, putting stupid drawings up on the wall and bouncing off ideas and something like that. And then you bring in the production company, the cool guys. But you know, the idea will, you know, will work.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, one thing you got me thinking about too is with, when we're talking about with the in house marketing and stuff like that is that, you know, all the agency owners that are listening to this podcast, we have our clients that we're doing work for and they may or may not have in house agencies and work, collaboration, whatever. But then there's also, there's also our own marketing as an agency which we're tending to use our in house, you know, in house team.
And we often are not that great at it because we're so busy building the content for the clients and being creative with them and collaborating with them that then like we were like, oh, shoot, we haven't put out any of our own creative content and stuff like how do you wrestle? You know, how do you kind of deal with that?
[00:28:42] Speaker A: I do it at night. No, no, no. But for us it's a lot about doing the reports, writing books, talk about what we are Doing and the benefits of that, of course, I really trust that. I believe in that model, but I don't think it's the only model out there. I think it's a great fit for a lot of companies, but not for all.
So that's, I mean it's like showing up in podcast and be challenged, but it's also interviewing these.
Actually it's like almost 2,000 people, but we had to discharge a lot of them because we were, you know, not sure they were the right. And they didn't fit. So it's also a lot about talking with a lot of decision makers from, from different markets, different positions, not only marketing, saying, what are they really looking for? Why are they not bringing it in? Why do they want to bring it in? What kind of the business makes sense? What challenges are they facing?
Because something like brief quality, it's always a problem. It's been a problem for the last 20ish years I've been in marketing that the briefs are bad, but it's not getting better. When you sit next to someone, I mean, when you're an agency, you can be a bit, be a bit of a drama queen and say, I can't work with this shit. You have to do it better. But you can't really be that guy. When you have to go down and have lunch with people afterwards, you then you have to behave a bit differently.
So, so there are pros and cons of, of, of all the models. You, you tend to get, you know, a bit lazy when you're in house doing something that works last time and then we don't disagree and everything's good and you know, I can, I can leave early. I'm in Scandinavia. Right.
Um, and, and, and you also get, sometimes you get that tunnel vision, some like echo chamber where we agree on certain, certain words, a way of saying it and say, oh, that's how, how the rest of the world see things. And it's not. I mean, I worked on a company where we invented words ourselves that we kept saying to each other, this is for the, that kind of guy. And then somebody, I mean, really last minute said, is that a thing?
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Does anybody even know what we're talking about?
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Yeah, it was.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think you're right though. It's easy to kind of like coast when you're doing your own marketing or kind of get in a rut. And I think trying to treat our own business like it's a client and kind of putting that same energy into marketing ourselves and our business as we're putting into our clients, I think that's really important. One of the things that we've done is we've tried to build in some of those things you were talking about, like, hey, this is what worked really well over here, or here's the case study, or here's the portfolio thing or whatever, like, into our kind of final steps of our process so that when we finish a project, you know, we can actually get the word out that we did this project and put it in our portfolio or do a video or case study or a blog post on here's what works really well on this, and here's why we did it this way. You know, I think that kind of stuff goes a long way, right, in terms of kind of positioning you as an expert, like we were talking about earlier. And then also, you know, kind of building those connections and, and getting yourself out there to get more, you know, business and stuff.
[00:32:05] Speaker A: I totally agree. And it's, It's. It's one of those things that we always keep forgetting the whole thing. Oh, oh, we have to do a case story, but, oh, that's too late now. It's out now. And, you know, we should have asked for it in the beginning. Afterwards, there's always something, and then you move on and. Yeah, so, so. So having that checklist of saying, when we do this campaign, we also want to, you know, have a case story. We want to have something we can show and, yeah, the whole case thing.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: So as we're wrapping up, I'm curious, where do you see, like, marketing in general, like, kind of headed in the. In the coming years? You know, because there's been. There's been so much I feel like shifting, even just in the last few years. Where do you see it heading in the coming years? I'd be curious on your take on that.
[00:32:51] Speaker A: I think I mentioned a bit earlier, I think one of the big things, I mean, everything is going to be AI and everything is possible.
Yesterday, the new OpenAI model came out, and it looked amazing. You could really do crazy stuff like putting jackets on people, and it looked real. You can have AI doing a lot of analysis. What I think is we're getting to very soon is like a sea of sameness.
So, you know, you will raise the bottom, but only to a certain level where you will have all your perfect written content on all your landing pages and so on. And that's fine. It's better than not having it. You can be on every language you want to be on and so on. So I think the base level will be fine, but I think it's gonna be creativity that feels the same.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: And I think if anything is possible, and it is right now, you can see on the screen, everything could be AI. You could do everything. That's magic. I mean, I can do things like that's better than a sci fi film from just five years ago or something like that, just with my iPhone. So I think what's really going to kick off is something happening in the real world, to be honest. Doing some sort of installation or happening of. I wouldn't say flash mob. That's like a 13 years old, maybe more.
But. But I think that that's. That's a direction. I think something.
Yeah, that's my best guess. I mean, I. Yeah, yeah, no, and.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: I think the storytelling becomes really valuable, right, because everything's going to be real polished and easy to do, but it's still going to take a good story or a good narrative to engage people. And. And I think the uniqueness and kind of the creativity and the standing out is going to really, really be important, you know, when everything is well written and, you know, looks good just on the surface, but kind of making something that's going to really grab people. So, Casper, thank you so much. This has been so great to get to connect with you and thank you for the insights for our audience and.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Really appreciate it and thank you for having me. It was. It was fun. Also moving down that Agency territory where I have to be a bit delicate on what I'm saying, not to offend people.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: Oh, you are great. You're great.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Thanks for having me.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Agency Hour podcast and a massive thanks to Casper for joining us. Okay, folks, remember to subscribe and please share this with anyone who you think may need to hear it. I'm Johnny Flash. Let's get to work.
